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[–]moirende 11 points12 points ago*

They won't. If there is one thing we all should have learned about "the cause" by now, the first rule is NEVER admit the slightest thing.

Which is fine. Their lack of integrity laid bare, we may now feel free to assume they are "pulling a Gleick" every time they open their mouths. First they shoot themselves in the foot, now they keep raising the barrel. Eventually they will hit a vital organ and that will be that.

EDIT: feel free to assume

[–]publius_lxxii 7 points8 points ago

I just realized something -

Gleick's limited hangout confession, without revealing insight to the origin of the fake strategy memo, has left his supporters in a HORRIBLE position.

They NEED to pretend the fake document is most likely genuine.

[–]ItsJustAConspiracy 0 points1 point ago

You do realize that IF this gets to court Gleick will rightfully claim that his intentions were somewhere between Deep Throat and Bradley Manning, and it seems to be ready to swear that - as long as he knows - ALL documents are real - at which point Bast will be called to admit under oath that 7 of the documents are real and swear if he ever saw the strategy document - do you want to bet that he will not swear?

[–]counters -3 points-2 points ago

People are too caught up frothing at the mouth inventing new conspiracy theories to bother paying attention to these small details. There's still a lot more to this story.

[–]elcapitanloco -1 points0 points ago

the first rule is NEVER admit the slightest thing.

Never? Gleick already admitted his role. The climategate hacker/leaker, on the other hand, has yet to come forward.

Their lack of integrity laid bare,

It's almost funny how the people who applauded and misrepresented climategate are now outraged by the "lack of integrity" involved in the Heartland leaks.

[–]GWstalker -1 points0 points ago

If there is one thing we all should have learned about "the cause" by now, the first rule is NEVER admit the slightest thing.

Funny, then, that Gleick confessed to being the source of the leak.

Oops!

[–]penGuiner 5 points6 points ago

What is at all surprising about Glieck lying. These warmers have lied about the data and models for decades, this is small change to these frauds.

[–]GWstalker -1 points0 points ago

What statements should be retracted, exactly? Gleick's confession doesn't change the fact that the documents are extremely revealing.

[–]butch123 3 points4 points ago

Theft by deception...Wire fraud, Identity theft, ...for starters, Of course Gleick claims to have validated the fake memo, thus putting it forth as truth. HI can claim libel and damages for loss of donations. Gleick will need to come up with more than an "IS TOO!" defense.

[–]GWstalker 2 points3 points ago

Why are you ranting on about irrelevant stuff? Please explain what statements should be retracted.

As for the HI, the organization is guilty of abusing its non-profit status. It is not a real non-profit, but works with lobbying and PR. Loss of donations? LOL.

I hope the HI sues. That will force even more dirty secrets out in the open. Maybe this is what Gleick wanted to happen.

[–]butch123 1 point2 points ago

Whooooossssshhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

[–]GWstalker 1 point2 points ago

Gleick did not claim to have validated the memo. In fact, he pointed out that it was sent to him anonymously. It was because of the claims in the memo that he decided to figure out if what it said was correct.

The HI will have to open up in court, meaning that they will be exposed even further. Who knows, maybe Gleick was indeed hoping that they would sue.

The HI is used to lying outside the court room. Let's see what they do once they're in there.

[–]butch123 1 point2 points ago

A little gullible are you? Gleick told you a story you still want to believe in did he? Listen I have the perfect way for you to make a big impact on global climate change...I own this really useful bridge in Brooklyn,....now if you can come up with a little front money we can convert it to a pedestrian bridge so there is a net reduction in emissions. All you have to do is buy in for say ..$100,000 and I will give you a 1/10th ownership. We can convert it to a toll pedestrian bridge so we recoup our money quickly. Contact me further for details where to send your money.

[–]GWstalker 1 point2 points ago

It's funny how you completely avoid responding to my points. You lose, again.

[–]butch123 0 points1 point ago

Points? Points? you actually think you have points that matter?

[–]GWstalker 0 points1 point ago

You have been spending a lot of time disputing things you claim do not matter all of a sudden!

Gleick did not claim to have validated the memo. In fact, he pointed out that it was sent to him anonymously. It was because of the claims in the memo that he decided to figure out if what it said was correct.

The HI will have to open up in court, meaning that they will be exposed even further. Who knows, maybe Gleick was indeed hoping that they would sue.

The HI is used to lying outside the court room. Let's see what they do once they're in there.

[–]butch123 0 points1 point ago

???? WHOOOSSSHHHHH!

[–]counters -2 points-1 points ago

Retract what?

Gleick's actions were wholly inappropriate and should be condemned, but they have no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of the documents. In fact, this adds more weight to the accuracy of the trove of documents while adding an interesting twist on where the Climate Strategy Memo came from.

You might want to be careful with how you vilify Gleick, lest you unintentionally turn him into a modern day Daniel Ellsberg.

[–]moirende 1 point2 points ago

LOL! Could you honestly believe that? It doesn't seem possible, but from you... I guess I've come to realize that maybe it is.

Gleick may be a martyr exposing truth to power to some, but I think most of us realize that for the vast majority of people his likely trajectory is going to look a lot more like Dan Rather's.

[–]counters -1 points0 points ago

LOL! Could you honestly believe that? It doesn't seem possible, but from you... I guess I've come to realize that maybe it is.

Unlike you, I apply skepticism to problems like this. You are accepting Heartland's assertion that the memo is fake prima facia (and ignoring the fact that all of the details of the memo have been independently verified, sticking your fingers in your ear screaming "DAN RATHER!") while you reject the details of Gleick's confession out of hand - on what basis?

I don't trust any of them, and I'm eager for Heartland to take things to court so that in discovery we can get to the bottom of this. And if it turns out that the story in Gleick's confession is accurate, then Heartland is in even deeper in the muck because of their handling of the ordeal.

[–]butch123 4 points5 points ago

Admitted liar and thief says one thing from a position of ignorance, Heartland Institute says opposite thing from a position of knowledge.

Weight of the evidence applies.

[–]moirende 2 points3 points ago

while you reject the details of Gleick's confession out of hand - on what basis?

On the basis that he's an admitted liar and thief.

[–]moirende 1 point2 points ago*

Okay, I have a bit more time now and I really did want to do a bit more justice to unpacking exactly what Gleick, er counters (hard to tell them apart some days) said there.

Unlike you, I apply skepticism to problems like this

See, that's your first problem. This has being going for a week now and until your quote below (I'm getting to it) you have never applied the slightest skepticism to any of this. You've run with it like a bull at a red flag. Hell, when it first broke last week I urged caution and you mocked me for being a denier trying to spin it.

...ignoring the fact that all the details of the memo have been independently verified...

Are you serious with that? absolutely anyone with a minimum of knowledge on this subject and in possession of the stolen documents could have easily written a fake cover memo that appeared to tie it all together.

So why is it reasonable to suspect that this has actually happened?

  1. The memo of itself was almost comical in the way it attempted to portray HI's activities. Like it was written by Dr. Evil's intern, as it was. Anyone with any experience in this sort of thing knows full well that a memo like that would never be written like that. It just. Doesn't. Happen.

  2. The memo contains uncommon turns of phrase that I have never seen used by so called deniers (because they don't fit the "denier" narrative) but are sometimes used by CAGW activists, notably and perhaps most famously Gleick himself.

  3. the memo contains odd phrasing and style that is very similar to Gleick's.

  4. The memo specifically relates to a few people (Curry, Revkin) that makes no sense in the context of HI's relationship with both but does make sense if it were written from Gleick's perspective.

  5. The memo was conveniently not included in the stolen HI documents, but instead now has this elaborate backstory made up for it. Anyone who has ever dealt with bad liars is familiar with the "too many implausible details" tell.

Now, of course none of this points conclusively to Gleick having written it, but it certainly is a far more plausible explanation than the one Geick has provided, particularly when placed in the context of Gleick himself. Anyone capable of impersonating another in an effort to steal confidential documents with the intent of attacking HI is more than capable of having written the fake doc and then later lying when the jig is up.

you reject the details of Gleick's confession out of hand - on what basis?

First, on the basis that as elsewhere noted, on this subject he has already demonstrated a willingness to behave extremely unethically so there is no reason now to start taking him at his word. Second, it is not uncommon at all for criminals, once caught, to attempt to rationalize or minimize their crime in order to defect attention / punishment. In other words, the first confession is by no means the most accurate one.

sticking you fingers in your ear screaming "Dan Rather"

Well, I think by any objective measure the only one who has demonstrated willful denial here is you. I note that at least a couple of organizations he is affiliated with have moved to sever their relationship with him, and more are sure to follow. While the Pacific Institute seems to be sticking by him now I 100% guarantee behind closed doors they are talking about the best way to move him out. He'll be gone from them within a month, whatever the cover story they decide on to help him salvage a little dignity. They have to cut him loose.

I also look forward to this going to court, as it almost certainly will. You go ahead and hold on to the pipe dream that this is somehow going to make HI look bad. Maybe. But in the process Gleick, and who knows who else, will be destroyed. Good luck with all that.

EDIT: and now I see that the Atlantic has laid it out far better than I, here.

Here's the money quote:

When skeptics complain that global warming activists are apparently willing to go to any lengths--including lying--to advance their worldview, I'd say one of the movement's top priorities should be not proving them right. And if one rogue member of the community does something crazy that provides such proof, I'd say it is crucial that the other members of the community say "Oh, how horrible, this is so far beyond the pale that I cannot imagine how this ever could have happened!" and not, "Well, he's apologized and I really think it's pretty crude and opportunistic to make a fuss about something that's so unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

After you have convinced people that you fervently believe your cause to be more important than telling the truth, you've lost the power to convince them of anything else.

[–]hammiesink 0 points1 point ago

Retract what? Although you guys are doing a masterful job of drawing attention away from the damning documents. "Look over there! ONE of them is fake! Look over there...Peter Gleick!!1!!"

[–]butch123 1 point2 points ago

Think Gleick did that himself.

[–]shrewd 2 points3 points ago

What's so damning about the real documents?

[–]hammiesink 0 points1 point ago

Partisan politics masquerading as science? If this were a liberal organization funneling money to make fake science to support global warming, holy crap would skeptics through a fit. But the opposite happens, and they defend it. Because, human nature is to hear what you want to hear and shut out the rest.

[–]kokey 1 point2 points ago

I do enjoy this particular form of accusation against Heartland. I don't particularly care, and I believe the accusation is quite true to some degree. However, by the same measure we have organisations like Greenpeace and the IPCC who can be accused of the same, just more of it and with much bigger budgets. In reality, just like the hockey stick is a bit of a staw man, the Heartland fiasco is one too.

[–]shrewd 1 point2 points ago

What - this is one of the most fucked up things I've read in many months.

Fake science - the peer reviewed process is flawed? Then we must look at the journals? Obviously there would be issues on both sides of the debate in regards to fake science.

[–]hammiesink -4 points-3 points ago

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[–]shrewd 1 point2 points ago

That's the issue.

[–]mutatron 1 point2 points ago

Who's Gleick?

[–]mutatron 2 points3 points ago

Oh, I didn't pay much attention to that business.